Historically, it's believed to be 34 AD, give or take a year. [erase erase erase], Actually, the same is true for you Thaddaeus, after you were appointed. Makes sense, but I could not prove this. I have come to save the day! In Matthew 22 and Mark 12, Jesus identified two commandments, saying one of them is the first and greatest most important one. Gamaliel In the Christian tradition, Gamaliel is recognized as a Pharisee doctor of Jewish Law. His dissertation was published as Jesus the Bridegroom by Pickwick Books in 2012. 3) Paul exaggerating his ministry in Ephesus claiming it was 3 years night and day with tears when really it was 3 months in the synagogue and 2 years daily in a lecture hall. I think in certain ways, Paul can be described as a Christian Pharisee who believes in Jesus because there are times when Paul goes very much by the books and follows certain rules. Their differing viewpoints do not seem like enough cause, to me, to doubt that Saul studied with Gamaliel. ). It is interesting in seeing the difference in view points of Saul and Gamaliel. Paul made up his own rule. Why follow a self-appointed voice that has given itself a special title like immaculate conception prophet apostle to the gentiles? Note: ingrafted Gentiles were branches of the tree and not replacements of Israel of the entire tree (replacement theology). I think they are both wrong, because of Ephesians 2:15 and Matthew 5:17-20, among other Scripture passages Can you help to bring harmony in the Bride of Christ? The people who Paul persecuted were Diaspora Jews who accepted Jesus as Messiah and claimed that God raised Jesus from the dead. Do you have a reference handy mentioning Gamaliel in the Clementine lit? Who did Apostle Paul study under? Since I am teaching through Paul and his Letters again this fall, I thought I would revisit that older post and provide some additional thoughts on Gamaliel as background for reading Paul. If Paul's conversion, as described in Acts was a literal event, the account would not so clearly appear to be based on the Greek classics. Phillip J. This is more accurate, important, and authoritative than personal letters written by Paul the Pharisee, who never knew Jesus personally, had no part in His ministry, and had no eyewitness testimony. There were a plethora of Pharisee within the Sanhedrin that agreed with Yeshua and Yeshua himself is a Pharisee(plethora of verses that state this as well). No research was taken into account of what the yeshivas of HIllel and Shammi taught and believed. There were at least 2 elements of Paul's training. Paul = "little". As an athlete and sports enthusiast, the references really stuck out to me and are passages of scripture that I have read multiple times. Anyway, I should save a throne for him too.. When he was younger, he used to have the great theological insight about territorial spirits and wrestling with dark angels. Gamaliel is reflecting the Hillel tradition of non-violence and allowing God to deal with parties that against the Jews (Polhill, Paul and His Letters, 31). Even if someone wants to be argumentative and say we cant prove that Judas wasnt there at the time, we certainly cant prove that Judas WAS there. The teachings he received included "the perfect manner of the law of the fathers" (Acts 22:3). Especially to a yeshiva student studying to be a Chazzan. Tarsus of Cilicia. So youd rather channel Constantine, anti semetic church fathers and bad book from amazon from authors who know absolutely nothing about Judaism or what they are even reading. The alternative must be that the author of Acts was using some literary licence in portraying the event. If you look at both the Greek and the Hebrew they were clearly called Netzarim (Nazarites) . Upgrade to remove ads. I started following this discussion because I wanted to find out more about Gamaliel, but this thread has thrown up many more points about the Apostles and St Paul in particular. While this is a generalization, many of the rabbinic debates of the first century come down to the opinion of Hillel versus Shammai. The only place in the New Testament that mentions anything like Seven Mountains is Revelation 17, seven hills on which the woman sits. (The Great Prostitute, that is.) As to pauls seemingly at odds relationship with his teacher Gamaliel, it is no odd thing for a student to differ from a teacher, especially if the student is quite a zealous one. Mantra: All Scripture is God-breathed.. He was brilliant and a top-educated person of his day. I tried to look for the beginning (Acts 1), because a friend Im discipling has asked to go through Acts with me, and this looks like good supplement material. Thanks, Andrew. Listen to him! [Mark 9:7], The Apostle John recorded the testimony of John the Baptist: I have see and I testify that this is the Son of God. [John 1:34], In contrast, Hundreds of years later Muhammad came along and wrote: God has no son.. Gamaliel became a leading authority in the Sanhedrin, the highest Jewish court in Jerusalem. This is not true, you have no idea what you are talking about. For that, we have to go to extra-biblical sources. Very much the contrary. In support of this alternative, it has long been noted that Galatians 1:16-24 appears to describe a . Silence since March now its June. There is also a fair bit of controversy about Paul. Pohill points out that Gamaliel seemed to be very resigned about this new Jesus movement, saying that if Christianity was not of Gods will, they would end in disaster just like the false messianic movements in Israels past did (pg 31). Yes the Holy Spirit guided him in his writings, but part of being human is how we are shaped from our teachers and mentors. There are some points I agree and disagree with. Extremely zealous follower of Judaism (Php 3:5-6). I want to bring my hippie friends to church- but how to I explain to them that its taboo to mention Pauls sins and doctrinal errors in church? What does tents mean in the Bible? Having other ideas that moves us away from the scripture is tantamount to adding or subtracting from the Word which we are forbidden to do. If the apostle Paul was a student of Gamaliel then Paul mustve had a wife since one of the requirements to be taught by Gamaliel was that you were married. Not the Jesus of the Koran, written by Muhammad the self-appointed prophet, and not the Jesus of Paul the Pharisee, the self-appointed apostle. While it is true that Paul did persecute early Christians, it was for his love of the Torah and not because he was rebelling against Roman oppression. Its too bad that modern Pauls control most pulpits, and are constantly bullying the followers of Jesus into silence, ignoring the words of Jesus, and instead leading people to follow PAAL. The character and position of his father. Modern day Christianity has more of its roots in Constantine. Paul (previously called Saul of Tarsus; c. 5 - c. 64/65 AD), commonly known as Paul the Apostle and Saint Paul, was a Christian apostle who spread the teachings of Jesus in the first-century world. (Eph. For example, But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified (1 Corinthians 9:27 ESV). In athletics and my walk with Christ, I must remain disciplined in all that I do. What is undisputed is that Gamaliel was "held in . In this case, that assumption would clearly be wrong. Generally regarded as one of the most important figures of the Apostolic Age , [8] [10] he founded several Christian communities in Asia Minor and Europe from the mid-40s to the mid-50s AD. The reason why the Essenes left and went into the desert was because they believed the Pharisee were to lax in their laws and punishment in the Sanhedrin. ), Paul is a Hillel talmudim through and though. This is something Peter practiced and had a struggle with regarding gentiles because hes from the school of Shammi. To what extent should we use Pauls training at the feet of Gamaliel as background to understanding his later theology? Terms in this set (31) Where was Paul born? The Apostle John recorded about the New Jerusalem, The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. [Revelation 21:14], The Apostles are 12 faithful eyewitnesses who walked with Jesus during His entire earthly ministry, and Matthias is the 12th. This is simply not the case and you need to read a bit more widely than you have. It is an observation of fact that much of Matthew is simply copied from Mark. Therefore, what Saul was taught was not based off of Gods truth. ), Phillip, In your other post on Paul and Gamaliel http://readingacts.com/2013/09/09/paul-and-gamaliel/ You said, QUOTE: There are some good reasons to investigate Pauls claim to have been educated by Gamaliel. Its all a part of Gods perfect timing and plan. Without any clear time reference, continuing on the theme of the Apostles, Matthew does record These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions [Matthew 10:5] Matthew never said that the Apostles were sent out immediately after being appointed. Gamaliel was the grandson of Hillel, the most renowned rabbi in Jewish history. If probably, then how would we know whether Paul ever pulled a rare Justice Rehnquist move, where Rehnquist sides with liberal Justices and dissents against conservatives in weird and inexplicable single cases or two? We can now understand as they did then, what God wills, what Christ said, and His ambassadors taught. You can read Peters advice for yourself- then open your Bible to Matthew, John, Revelation, and Mark, and listen to Jesus for yourself! ), STEP 4) Paul said; Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. Gamaliel Paul, in a speech to the Jews, tried to influence them by stating that he had been a student of Gamaliel ("I am a Jew, . Paul may very well have studied under Gamaliel and from there established the groundwork from which to build a new movement. When morning came, he called his disciples to him and chose twelve of them, whom he also designated apostles: Simon.. [Luke 6:12-14], Again three chapters later, When Jesus had called the Twelve together, he gave them power and authority to drive out all demons and to cure diseases, and he sent them out to preach the kingdom of God and to heal the sick. [Luke 9:1-2], .3) Gospel of Matthew which is organized by theme, not necessarily in chronological order. Who was Paul taught under? Im sorry that Christians cant come to grips in their confirmation bias that both Yeshua and Pauls ministries was infact Judaism.. The issue is that the massive influx of gentiles into the sect are causing problems by bringing in gentile customs, natural born Jews adhearing to traditions that contradict Torah. People tend to forget that Yeshua himself stated that we are to listen to the Pharisees for they sit in the seat of Moses. Im not sure if there is any evidence of Paul having any athletic prowess on the field but his understanding of Greek athletics is well documented. I am not at all removing Paul (or Jesus) from the culture of the Second Temple period, but I certainly more aware of what was happening in the first century that you appear to be. Like Brad Young, he is deeply influenced by David Flusser but unlike Flusser and Young, he is less in touch with mainstream Jewish scholarship. However the church now says the law has been done away with and they have replace Israel. I trust that no one is offended and that as a result of this comment, we might get closer to Him, The Truth. in a meticulous, more comprehensive way. For example, Polhill says, The most interesting ruling preserved from Rabban Gamaliel was his insistence that a woman had the right to remarry upon the testimony of a single witness that her husband had died. get up set if you want ,,but Paul was that , dont believe it ? It would be like me claiming that I was educated in worship by Marco Barrientos at Christ for the Nations in Dallas Texas he is the worship leader famous in Spanish Language Charismatic Christian circles for his song based on Isaiah 11:9 Ser Llena la Tierra https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=zGS_V5mEOG4, Is it true? If you dont agree with my interpretations and applications of the facts, fine. To be more like Jesus is what some strive except for me Ive already arrived Im the perfect model since the road to Damascus What were Pauls sins? Jesus spoke the 3 chapters of the Sermon on the Mount, Matthew 5-7, including 7:12. Belivers in Yeshua adhered to Lev, 23 and worshipped on the true shabbat. Three hours, noon to 3 pm. And one for Muhammad too. Its not like there is a reason to believe a man who said, If my FALSEHOODS abound to Gods glory why am I being judged a sinner.?. Perhaps on the basis of a preserved tradition that he oversaw the body of St. Stephen. Why does it make us so uncomfortable? I didnt know everything 7 years ago either but I have grown and learned new things about God and His Word in the past 7 years, as is normal for a growing believer. This is the reason why Yeshua said that Pharisee should be the the ones teaching. But there is a notable difference in Paul from pre- to post-conversion. Pauls athletic references good point Emily. He is never popular, but always interesting! Paul was accustomed to learning from his elders as he developed as a Pharisee (Galatians 1:14). The Orthodox Muslim view of the Koran as self-evidently the Word of God, perfect and inimitable in message, language, style, and form, is strikingly similar to the fundamentalist Christian notion of the Bibles inerrancy and verbal inspiration that is still common in many places today. Jesus never said anything like that, and Jesus did not see it that way. And I need to save a throne for my mom, or shell be mad. The job is to paint the garage and house what difference does it make which one is first? No one except Judas ever lost his apostleship. Heres part two of this poem this spot seems the most appropriate place, I am he who searches hearts and minds says the Risen Jesus Christ Repent and do what you did at first Dont be lazy since He paid the price, Yes, Jesus sees our sins today Dont think that He is blind But the words of paul the Pharisee Will put you in a bind, Jesus washed away your sins Dont listen to paul the accuser paul abandoned the Church in Corinth And then paul became an abuser, When you put your trust in Jesus Yes, your stains were white as snow You didnt need to wear a Scarlet Letter Everywhere you go, I will repay each of you According to your deeds This is Jesus speaking to The Church Not a business selling felt needs, For those who claim to be apostles Jesus said they must be tested Priscilla, Aquila, and Apollos Persevered and were not bested, They exposed the false teachings Of paul the Pharisee So the Church in Ephesus rejected paul And had a chance to be free, Bibliography All quotes are the words of Jesus, in Revelation Chapter 2, Do we know what language was spoken in Gamaliels school or likely to have been spoken Hebrew or Aramaic? To Paul, Christianity was dangerous, and to his Jewish thinking, very wrong. Its not easy for me now in 1973, as a young man just trying to start out in ministry. Written in stone. What could be more permanent than that? (I know, captain obvious). (Paul said so is one witness, but you need to establish every matter by the testimony of two or three witnesses. The Lord God Jesus the Jewish Messiah, Son of Yahweh the Most High God of Israel, said: All the Law and the Prophets hang on these TWO commandments. Not one. At the Last Supper, Jesus said to His Apostles: You are those who have stood by me in my trials. Basically, he said that if the movement is from God then it cannot be stopped, if it is not then it will not succeed. While he agrees with Gamaliel, Paul wants to protect that which he loves. Happy Pentecost 2017 All praise be to Jesus. The Lord Jesus clinches this point: if ye abide in my word, then are ye truly my disciples; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free (John 8:31-32). imitate me.. Things will be different then. section 8 rentals in oak grove ms His knowledge and metaphors have helped me relate more to what his letters say. Long has taught full time at Grace Christian University since 1998, specializing in Bible and Biblical languages. Paul is inferior, Jesus is superior. etc. Gamaliel. Gamaliel taught between A.D. 22-55, giving us an approximate early date for Paul's education. And what kind of a stone is the most solid, permanent, and unchangeable? Gamaliel is reported to have offered somewhat lenient advice concerning the early preaching of the apostles (Acts 5:34-39). He just doesnt suddenly become submission to government and punishment, or in his words a prisoner of Jesus Christ. He is, at least, in some small way returning to what he could have been taught by Gamaliel. I would need to find an online edition of the Clementine Literature and hope there is a search capacity. . What were Pauls specific sins as a Christian? This post is about how God continued to prepare Paul for his mission through his studies at the feet of Gamaliel.. Gamaliel taught between A.D. 22-55, giving us an approximate early date for Pauls education. Probably his training with Gamaliel would have been concluded by the time he was twenty and would have given Paul a very good understanding of Old Testament Scripture. Cool ! Second, Tarsus also exposed Paul to different cultures. The command given by our Lord and Savior Is not a Pharisee speaking alone It came rather through your apostles Matthew Peter and John, If a Pharisee boasts proudly Those men added nothing to my message He doesnt speak for Jesus His words are nothing more than garbage, Bibliography All quotes in quotation marks are from the writings of the Apostles Matthew John and Peter in the Bible, mostly the Red Letter words of Jesus. These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon [Matthew 10:1]. The testimony of Jesus is the voice of Jesus, (The Red Letters,) recorded by the 11 faithful witnesses, the True Apostles that Jesus personally appointed and trained for over 3 years. For instance, Shammai believed the halachot they created that gentiles could never be saved or be in covenant and to eat with them was idolatry. But the testimonies of the era indicate he would have become a ward and trainee of Gamaliel in the age range of 10-14. My buddy has a new friend from a Baptist background that seems really smart and good with words. So 7:12 cannot stand alone as One Commandment. Sounds almost like he was in the personal transportation industry back in sword and sandal epic days Peter Charioteer? Maybe not. Either way, by Acts logic every Christian should reject false doctrines but if a new teacher appears and preaches about God the One God, and is called a Prophet, if his mission is as wildly successful, sans the forced conversions Christianity depended on, IS FORBIDDEN at that, obviously Christians are the new Pharisees for rejecting and slandering Prophet Mohammed (saw) and adhering to oral traditions of their forefathers. Jesus as the Messiah was not so much a liberal view, as one of supposed profane or contemptuous speech, i.e. If he didnt have the teaching and influence then he wouldnt of had such a bold and confidence approach when speaking to other people. How long did it last? This is a matter of defining ones terms. Polhil states that perhaps around the age of fourteen to sixteen Paul went to Jerusalem to study under Gamaliel (Acts 22:3), (30). And most Evangelical pastors who read the Bible spend most of their time listening to the voice of Paul, so they become like Paul. But I digress, James, we had a good run. I am trying to understand this whole post, but think the discussion is mainly about Paul and why he acted the way he did in persecuting christians after studying under Gamaliel who was more concerned with non violent acts. While this is a generalization, many of the rabbinic debates of the first century come down to the opinion of Hillel versus Shammai. Gamaliel established a number of lenient ordinances, in particular . I regularly answer your lengthy and off topic responses. Train a child in the way he should go, and when he is old, he will not depart from it (Proverbs 22.6). He studied under the best Jewish teachers including the well-respected teacher, Gamaliel . ), STEP 3) Paul said; All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. [Romans 3:23] (Response- Again the same question; What were Pauls specific sins as a Christian? He was a ruthless persecutor who sought to stop what he saw as an aberration within Judaism. Then again youre the one creating a construct that Paul was Shammai. So they disagree with each other. Its called Islam and it is True Religion and the fastest growing religion on earth because people are realizing that Christianity is built on a foundation of lies and the religion of the Nazarenes and Ebionites is preserved in Islam. He fathered Simeon ben Gamliel, who was named for Gamaliel's father, and a daughter, who married a priest named Simon ben Nathanael. Galatians: Freedom through Gods Grace (Wipf & Stock, 2019). In Gospel of John chapter 10, the Apostle John records many words of Jesus, including: My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me., I recommend reading the whole chapter (10), and listening to the voice of Jesus first (rather than the voice of a stranger like Paul first. For years now America has been stuck in a seemingly endless, unwinnable guerilla war in an Asian nation that borders China. Acts 21:39 - "But Paul said, ' am a Jew from Tarsus, in Cilicia, a citizen of no mean city . Some of its magic, some its tragic, but Ive had a good life along the way. -Jimmy Buffett. The will of God is plainly revealed, showing all that man is to do, to be, to suffer, and enjoy. For example, are we missing any casuistry from Gamaliel which might demonstrate Gamaliels dissent from Hillel in specific cases presenting unique facts? As a world renowned public speaker, Rabbi Singer addresses more than 100 audiences a year. As a Roman citizen, Paul possessed a coveted status I pray that you will be blessed with the knowledge of Jesus Christ and Gods love through the cross for you. Since the entire ministry framework both Yeshua and Paul are 100% Jewish, meaning adherence oral and written law, you are to view it from that lense. If it wasnt for his prior teaching and influence, then he would not of had the zeal and passion. Acts 26:4. [22] The Roman Catholic church views him as a Saint and listed him in the Roman Martyrology for August 3. No, im based in Missouri. With respect to Hellenism, Hillel was more open to Hellenism than Shammai and was therefore more open to cooperation with the Romans. The translation of his relics is observed on August 2 . These mostly have something to do with marriage and divorce. I cannot imagine Paul competing in the gymnasium, even if he was Hellenized. Shaul and Yehusa were both Jews who practiced Judaism, worshiped in synagogues, at the temple and were part of Jewish society and culture. He also intimately knew Gamaliel was was there, at least at The time of Pentecost. You can hover over the pic and it will say that (or at least it did for me in Firefox). The Olympic games were created to honor the gods and Emperors were considered gods. Or is it possible that Paul privately harbored more overall agreement with Gamaliel/Hillel than with Shammaite Pharisees, and that Paul felt himself to be a lone dissenter in rare cases (Christians) against his former masters legal hermeneutics of mercy? Neither Paul, nor James, nor Luke were with Jesus and the Apostles the whole time, so they were not qualified to be a witness with the Apostles of Jesus resurrection, which is what it means to be an Apostle. I dont see this in the text. You will seek Him and find Him when you seek Him with all your heart.. To my Bible-believing Evangelical friends: If you have been reading some of my posts and you feel a spirit rising up inside you telling you: Hes wrong !!! There are many of us Red Letter Christians out here in evangelical land. Dear Wilson, Yes there are ! Do you have a Biblical basis for your response? That is a good question, I am not sure if anyone has ever asked me that before! Youre putting your western views on a Hebraic book that is of near eastern culture. The Hat is, What were Pauls sins?, The music starts, with a cheery blast of trumpets in a melody that is familiar to most North Americans- the Mexican Hat Dance. (The national dance of Mexico, taught in Mexican public schools since 1921, and officially named El Jarabe Tapatio.), A couple in rather elaborate traditional costumes begins the dance. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. Paul claims in Philippians 3 to be a Hebrew of the Hebrews, some people take that as a saying we spoke Hebrew at home, not Greek or Aramaic. Here however it plainly is not. They believe after reading his writings the law is done away with, you can eat what you want and he was anti Judaism. Which one is it? Then stood there up one in the council, a Pharisee, named Gamaliel, a doctor of the law, had in reputation among all the people, and commanded to put the apostles forth a little space; Numbers 7:59 chapter context similar meaning "And for a sacrifice of peace offerings, two oxen, five rams, five he goats, five lambs of the first year: this was the offering of Gamaliel the son of Pedahzur." Love is all you need. This is getting boring. teresa marina tabucchi; antonia reininghaus daughter; mountain view ar tornado 1996; safari photography settings; catfish bite force; professional executor services The Middle East is very unstable. I dont have any position or influence in the Christian world. If Paul began study at the latest age of 16, we can guess a birth year of about 6 at the earliest. Paint the house first, and Ill stay in the garage until youre done. On analogy to Supreme Court Justices dissenting in limited and specific cases (anomolies) as a dissenting minority against a majority with whom the dissent would normally agree? If I did something it MUST be right Dont use the Scripture to shed any light Dont do as I say, do as I do and then you can be a Pharisee too. Many self-professed Bible-believing Evangelicals wont listen to the words of Jesus, because they are brainwashed through reciting their mantra all scripture is God-breathed.. The personal transportation industry back in sword and sandal epic days Peter Charioteer extent should we use Pauls training the..., at least, in some small way returning to what he saw an... 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